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I have been sitting back watching the whole emo bashing tread with interest. Some are so intent on discrediting a sub culture that they truly don’t understand, while others view it as nothing more then a fashion and claim it doesn’t exist. Having been around the hc/punk scene for the past 10 years, I am by no means old school but I feel I have seen enough to have a solid grasp on it. In that span of time I have watched many different types of people come and go as well as a lot of people grow up an evolve. Most of the people I grew up with came from the same type of backgrounds, we were f**k ups in school, didn’t care much for sports, and liked to do our own thing. We were little 14 year old skate punks with chips on our shoulders. The sound track to our lives was anything fast and angry. As we got older our tastes and styles of dress changed as well. The majority of my crew were art fags in one way or another. This was due to some inner need to document what we were up too as well as another form of self expression. Zines, bands, writers, photographers, we did it all. This interest in art is what kept us from failing out of high school and eventually got us into college. Hardcore was no longer our sole reason for existence so by the time high school was wrapping up my crew went from about 30 strong to about 12 kids. After the first year of college that number dropped to 6. We were also different from when we first met. We went from drug addicts to straight edge to drinkers once we hit 21. In terms of our diet we went from carnivores to vegetarians to vegans. Our style of dress went from cargo paints and hoodies to baggy jeans and collared shirts, to our current tastes of fitted clothing and full sleeve tattoos. Musically our tastes went from 7 sec/AF/badbrains to cromags/RIP/killingtime/ect to converge/ tornapart/damnation ad/overcast/endeavor/ you and I. Some where along the line we realized how good a lot of melodic bands were and the more we stopped caring about being hard or fighting the more emo we became. I might not ever label myself as emo, but self depressive metallic music is what I can best relate to. Street justice didn’t mean the same thing in 96 as it did in 86, and it means even less now. The cromags were a great band and as timeless as age of quarrel is musically, the message just doesn’t carry the same weight in my eyes.
Having said that, I will not defend any new jack kid that’s into emo because it’s the cool trend. I look and think how I do as a direct result of my experiences growing up. These new jack emo kids are the same kids who we beat up as ska fruits and pop punk nerds, they just adopted a different uniform. The anti emo thread should be changed to f**k the trendy new jacks because this is what people relate emo to. There are plenty of people just like me who look like the current crop of emo kids but have a deep connection to music and the lifestyle that goes along with it. The only good thing that comes from this increased popularity in emo and metally hc is the fact a lot more mainstream girls are running around looking fly in some emo influenced threads. I never liked the fact that I could always find at least one other person I knew who slept with the same girl I was f**king. Fresh meat will always be a plus in my book.
If anyone wants to bicker about emo being just a fashion, by that definition we can rule out the validity of skinheads as a sub culture as well. I can’t think of any group who are more slaves to fashion. Go to a show where its 110 degrees inside and you will still find skins wearing their beloved flight jackets. If that isn’t an example of a fashion victim I don’t know what is.
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There are 2 types of music: Good music, and Bad music.
Since 'good' and 'bad' are subjective concepts no one can really bash anyone elses style of music.
Sure you can give your opinion, sure you can attack an artist for their actions, sure you can like whatever you want.
Im sure there is good Emo out there for everyone. Its all about what you can relate to.
Your point is well taken. I am not really an emo basher per say.....but hey......emo dudes be wearin some fucked up outfits.
As for the tunes....I'll take the Cro Mags over Rainer Maria anyday. I'd rather listen to songs about "hard times" as opposed to having a new hole in my favorite pair of pink socks anyday. There are many emo bands that I think are very catchy and fun...eg. Piebald, etc....but hey......you wont catch me wearin a members only jacket.....for any chicks....period!
Re: In defense of emo
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:22 pm
Hcor
Site Admin
Joined: Sep 8, 2002
Posts: 3663
Location: New Jersey
Ispoiler wrote:
I have been sitting back watching the whole emo bashing tread with interest. Some are so intent on discrediting a sub culture that they truly don’t understand, while others view it as nothing more then a fashion and claim it doesn’t exist. Having been around the hc/punk scene for the past 10 years, I am by no means old school but I feel I have seen enough to have a solid grasp on it. In that span of time I have watched many different types of people come and go as well as a lot of people grow up an evolve. Most of the people I grew up with came from the same type of backgrounds, we were f**k ups in school, didn’t care much for sports, and liked to do our own thing. We were little 14 year old skate punks with chips on our shoulders. The sound track to our lives was anything fast and angry. As we got older our tastes and styles of dress changed as well. The majority of my crew were art fags in one way or another. This was due to some inner need to document what we were up too as well as another form of self expression. Zines, bands, writers, photographers, we did it all. This interest in art is what kept us from failing out of high school and eventually got us into college. Hardcore was no longer our sole reason for existence so by the time high school was wrapping up my crew went from about 30 strong to about 12 kids. After the first year of college that number dropped to 6. We were also different from when we first met. We went from drug addicts to straight edge to drinkers once we hit 21. In terms of our diet we went from carnivores to vegetarians to vegans. Our style of dress went from cargo paints and hoodies to baggy jeans and collared shirts, to our current tastes of fitted clothing and full sleeve tattoos. Musically our tastes went from 7 sec/AF/badbrains to cromags/RIP/killingtime/ect to converge/ tornapart/damnation ad/overcast/endeavor/ you and I. Some where along the line we realized how good a lot of melodic bands were and the more we stopped caring about being hard or fighting the more emo we became. I might not ever label myself as emo, but self depressive metallic music is what I can best relate to. Street justice didn’t mean the same thing in 96 as it did in 86, and it means even less now. The cromags were a great band and as timeless as age of quarrel is musically, the message just doesn’t carry the same weight in my eyes.
Having said that, I will not defend any new jack kid that’s into emo because it’s the cool trend. I look and think how I do as a direct result of my experiences growing up. These new jack emo kids are the same kids who we beat up as ska fruits and pop punk nerds, they just adopted a different uniform. The anti emo thread should be changed to f**k the trendy new jacks because this is what people relate emo to. There are plenty of people just like me who look like the current crop of emo kids but have a deep connection to music and the lifestyle that goes along with it. The only good thing that comes from this increased popularity in emo and metally hc is the fact a lot more mainstream girls are running around looking fly in some emo influenced threads. I never liked the fact that I could always find at least one other person I knew who slept with the same girl I was f**king. Fresh meat will always be a plus in my book.
If anyone wants to bicker about emo being just a fashion, by that definition we can rule out the validity of skinheads as a sub culture as well. I can’t think of any group who are more slaves to fashion. Go to a show where its 110 degrees inside and you will still find skins wearing their beloved flight jackets. If that isn’t an example of a fashion victim I don’t know what is.
Here is some insight from someone who does consider himself oldschool. T
Quote:
"Some are so intent on discrediting a sub culture that they truly don’t understand"
Understand what? There is no movement or motive behind what you call emo. The differences behind the music are very apparent in reading your post. When the scene existed in the late 80's the majority of our scene was not 14 year old skate kids with chips on our shoulders, or just high school kids who didnt like sports. We made up mostly of lower income white kids and adults from fucked up families who did not agree with the mainstream beliefs and BS that suffocated us back then. There were political, racial, economical and social movements behind the music. Hardcore which came from punk, was in the streets. There were definately plenty of cliques formed (skins, punks etc) but in any case, most of them had reasons for being the way they were, and fought everyday to stand up for their beliefs and each other.
Quote:
We went from drug addicts to straight edge to drinkers once we hit 21. In terms of our diet we went from carnivores to vegetarians to vegans. Our style of dress went from cargo paints and hoodies to baggy jeans and collared shirts, to our current tastes of fitted clothing and full sleeve tattoos. Musically our tastes went from 7 sec/AF/badbrains to cromags/RIP/killingtime/ect to converge/ tornapart/damnation ad/overcast/endeavor/ you and I
I dont really know too many people who had to change this much. We always wore hoodies and jeans and certainly never stopped eating meat because it was cool or hardcore to be vegan or Straight Edge. Our musical tastes never changed, they just expanded. Most of us never bought into all the plastic subcultures created along the way.
Quote:
Some where along the line we realized how good a lot of melodic bands were and the more we stopped caring about being hard or fighting the more emo we became
Once again...this was never a revelation to me. I always enjoyed good bands regardless if they were melodic or not. I never considered them another genre. As for caring about being hard or fighting...this wasnt something you thought about. This was something that you became. Everything is not an act. Being hard and fighting has nothing to do with Hardcore. However standing up for your beleifs and your people has everything to do with whats in you as a person. That love and dedication to eachother and our beliefs is what came from hardcore.
Quote:
If anyone wants to bicker about emo being just a fashion, by that definition we can rule out the validity of skinheads as a sub culture as well
Besides the fact that 99% of all skins/punks nowadays are little kids that have no clue. There are some that do. For those that do I can at least say this: I can think of 100 reasons why they are what they are and Im sure they would be happy to go into details on the beleifs and history. As for "EMO" the only way to describe the subculture is fashion. Take all the heart, soul, dedication, and history out of punk/hardcore, add the same melodic music that has been around forever, then add a whole new look and make a whole new genre. BS. Its just an excuse for people to look punk/hardcore with absolutely no consequences or meaning behind it. Fact is, 90% of these people would have been too much of a pussy to walk through a mall looking like that 10 years ago. Now they can shop in Hot Topic....gimme a break.
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Re: In defense of emo
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:17 pm
ska todd
Ironhorse
Joined: Sep 8, 2002
Posts: 519
Location: Rocky Point, Lawnguyland, New Yawk
Hcor wrote:
Its just an excuse for people to look punk/hardcore with absolutely no consequences or meaning behind it. Fact is, 90% of these people would have been too much of a Female thingy to walk through a mall looking like that 10 years ago. Now they can shop in Hot Topic....gimme a break.
Hells F'in yeah!! On Social D's live at the Roxy album Ness rails on the little kids going to the mall to get their "pussies pierced and the crazy color for their hair"...funny shit. I still loose it everytime I hear it. Being "punk" isn't about the clothes you wear or the music you listen to. It's in the attitude, in the thought, in the desire. Clothes, music are just traits of some of the population who are "punk". I dress like a total geek (hell some of you know me and can attest to this). Does this make me less punk than the scenesters and the trendies? F' NO! Just b/c I happen to listen to a lot of Bright Eyes, Decapaciados, TBS, Reunion Show, Dashboard, recently am I less punk than thou? F' NO! I will still be "rude" long after the last white kid from suburbia gets a guitar and learns 3 chords, pretends he's jamacian, and gets some band geeks to play horns! I will still be "punk" long after the last kids learn how to play guitar and drums by listening to the Ramones, the Clash, and the Sex Pistols and put on a "show" at their local VFW!
-ska todd
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Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:05 pm
Inclag
Burner
Joined: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 206
Location: Wooostah!
Great post HCOR!
One thing I can't stand are people that act fake.
Music and how you choose to live your lifestyle are two totally different things. I listen to what I think is good music, and I dress and eat how I like. Simple as that.
I don't care what anyone thinks, but I've come to the conclusion that every human being fights for something or stands up for something no matter how big or small. The reason why people bash "emo" is because these are the people that are to insecure to stand up for something. They are the ones that sit in the corner and say "look at me, feel bad for me". They live in a superficial world where they think that they are actually doing something meaningful.
To say that lifestyle and music go hand in hand is a joke. "Emo's" are the lowest form of life in that I know of. Even the homeless man that I see going to every large concert I've been to, or the Bruin's games with a sign saying to "save yourself from hell" handing out pamphlets is more respectable in my eyes.
BTW, my post isn't aimed toward anyone in general, especially people that like what is called "emo" style music (I hate putting music in genre's as it is). This is just a little rant.
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 7:13 pm
Ispoiler
Team Hcor.net
Joined: Sep 8, 2002
Posts: 40
Location: Summit NJ
I guess I didn’t make my point clear enough. It wasn’t that we changed from style to style it was more of us evolving as individuals. Nobody was blasting Judge saying we need to go straight edge, I was the first to turn out of necessity. After doing so much acid and dust I was so burnt I could hardly speak in complete sentences. To this day I still mumble like a mother fucker from what can only be a lasting effect. My personal choice not to eat meat was brought about by an event that happened long before I even knew what punk rock was. I am sure a lot of the people I hung out with were influenced by my choices and followed suit. These were probably the first kids to drop out when something better came along. The few that remained were so like me it was scary. As Jon said, the bonds that developed were tight. There was also a lot of bullshit running rampant which turned me off to the scene. I refused to get caught up in the shit talking as well as the who had who’s back type of thing. I hit a lot of people when I had no business being involved in the first place. For what reason, to win the respect from some other group of people that I didn’t care about? I didn’t one day say fighting was wrong or that I didn’t want anything to do with it, I just stepped away from pointless drama. If someone fucks with my friends or family for whatever reason its on and that won’t ever change. To me Veganism is a person choice that makes me feel better about myself. Vegetarianism on the other hand is the one belief that I forever defend and will always feel that the less people eat meat the better off this world would be.
My whole point to this was to show where my as well as a lot of other peoples points of view came from. This current resurrection of emo was spawned by people who were fed up with the same bullshit that I was. I am the product of my environment, just as you are Jon. The difference is that your generation paved the way for mine. Nobody I grew up with were truly hard, there were a lot of wanna be’s but there was no point to it. I might have felt very alienated at times, but the truth of the matter was that we had nothing to fight or strive for. Unless some movement comes along to rid the scene of flakes and fakes or the world has sometype of anti punk backlash, hardtimes or vengeance will be just another angry song to me. If anyone who wasn’t around back then says its something more then they are talking out their ass. If your not oldschool then you might as well just admit you’re an emo fag like me. Maybe AOD was right in saying hardcore was dead in the late 80’s, it will never be like that again.
Not to completely contradict myself, but the more i think about it the more pointless hardcore is in general these days. The fact I felt the need to stick up for something thats just a faded negative of a picture that used to be is rather sad. I should be out crying over the newspaper getting wet, or my last girlfriend dumping me. Whats even sadder is the fact that most of the people that have been around for awhile are ghetto fab or look just like me.
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 1:37 am
Hcor
Site Admin
Joined: Sep 8, 2002
Posts: 3663
Location: New Jersey
Ispoiler...im not bashing on you, your music, or your eating habits. I also understand the point you are trying to make. However I dont beleive your thoughts expressed are representative of the people we describe as "EMO". I think these are your individual feelings and you are giving far too much credit to these 70's show rejects that spend more time worrying about how they look than a mall chick.
Hardcore/Punk music has been a huge part of my life since I was in Jr. High. I identified with the messages being delivered through a medium that made me feel worth something, and gave me spirit and drive in my otherwise shitty ass life. Through all of this I met others like me and we developed bonds that can only be equated to brotherhood. Things have changed in many different ways over the years in the music and the scene but i have never been upset about it. Evolution is inevitable as is change. Hardcore/punk to me was always about individuality and inner strength. I have a hard time seeing all that history swallowed up by a bunch of spoiled fucks who have done nothing but create a fashion show out of a culture that hates them.
My point is this....EMO has nothing at all to do with music, those who think it does are totally ignorant to hardcore/punk and its history. The music they claim as emo is still punk/hardcore, Emo is the fashion show that has no backbone. Hardcore was never a style or trend to us, it has always been in our hearts and in our minds, not on our credit card statements or a notch on our bedposts.
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:56 pm
atom
Team Hcor.net
Joined: Sep 7, 2002
Posts: 3828
Location: Strong Island, NY
Ispoiler wrote:
Maybe AOD was right in saying hardcore was dead in the late 80’s, it will never be like that again.
I would have agreed up until last monday (dec. 30th). However, going to some local bar and seeing Murphys Law play to 150 people made it feel alive. Its not that hXc died... it just went back to where it came from. I didnt see 1 fashion whore at the show. I saw a ton of old faces. I saw old school style floorpunching and windmills. I havent see it like that for years. It felt great! It really made me miss the old days.
As for this argument between Ispoiler and Hcor.... I am neutral. I agree with both of you, but I think you are both not seeing each others points.
Ispoiler.... Emo today is definetly a fashion show. However, I feel the same as you.. that EMO as a sub-genre of hardcore has existed for years, even before it was trendy. Even 10 years ago anyone into hardcore could tell an emo band, or even an emo kid. I can also agree with what you were saying about growing up, being apart of the scene, and then everyone falling off. Ive been there. It is an inevitable fact of life that people change. I wish I could remain 17 again for the rest of my life..but that aint gonna happen. Its not that anyone is a sellout, they just grew up and their lifestyles changes. It happens. I can see it happening to me. I am being forced to cover my tats and work, dress neatly, watch my mouth and shit.... thats not me, but I am getting old. I got bills to pay and being a "hardcore" aint gonna pay them. If Ive soldout, oh well.
Hcor... I understand what you are saying too. Hardcore had a purpose. It made a statement. However, your pin-pointing emo as not being apart of that same idea...what about all the hardcore bands of today? Do you really think they are from the streets? HAH.. most of these hardcore bands today are kids who live in the friggin woodsand have nothing better to do with themselves so they play punk rock. Thats all it is now. If you really think about it... thats all it is now across all types of hardcore and punk. There is no more message or movement...its gone. It died when the real hXc kids grew up and moved on! Im sure youve been to some recent shows.... that "emo" fashion is really hardcore fashion... its just that the emo music is easier for the mainstream world to accept so that is what got popular. Hardcore almost did the same thing a few years ago with bands like H20 and CIV and that shit. They tried to bring hardcore mainstream...and they almost succeeded. Real hardcore, NYHC, is back where it belongs. Also, I belive that emo did have a meaning when it first started out. It was the kids who were tired of the fighting and bullshit that was going down at the shows. They wanted to play music that was positive and energenic and moved people to sing along instead of throw fists.
In all honesty, I think the current state of hardcore as a whole is sad. No places to play, no more bands, its really a shame. Te bands that are around arent even really hardcore, but more metal than anything else. Its depressing to go into a sick of it all show at a local VFW here on LI and see only 200 kids there. Or goto a murphys law show and see 150 (although i had a blast). Or to go see agnostic front and murphys on new years eve at the continental and the show isnt even sold out. Whats the deal? That is hardcore.... not PTW, caliban or whatever metalcore bands that call themselves hardcore. Goto one of those shows and its soldout!!! WTF.
THe bottomline is that hardcore has changed. In my eyes, being somehwat oldschoo I see it as a bad change. Evolution? No.. I wouldnt call metalcore the evolution of hardcore.. its more like the bastard stepchild. Everyone who feels the same as me, including myself, is to blame for not doing anytihng to keep real hardcore music alive.
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:12 pm
Hcor
Site Admin
Joined: Sep 8, 2002
Posts: 3663
Location: New Jersey
Quote:
Hcor... I understand what you are saying too. Hardcore had a purpose. It made a statement. However, your pin-pointing emo as not being apart of that same idea...what about all the hardcore bands of today? Do you really think they are from the streets? HAH.. most of these hardcore bands today are kids who live in the friggin woods and have nothing better to do with themselves so they play punk rock. Thats all it is now. If you really think about it... thats all it is now across all types of hardcore and punk. There is no more message or movement...its gone. It died when the real hXc kids grew up and moved on! Im sure youve been to some recent shows.... that "emo" fashion is really hardcore fashion... its just that the emo music is easier for the mainstream world to accept so that is what got popular. Hardcore almost did the same thing a few years ago with bands like H20 and CIV and that shit. They tried to bring hardcore mainstream...and they almost succeeded. Real hardcore, NYHC, is back where it belongs. Also, I belive that emo did have a meaning when it first started out. It was the kids who were tired of the fighting and bullshit that was going down at the shows. They wanted to play music that was positive and energenic and moved people to sing along instead of throw fists.
Thats what I have been saying the whole time man. Emo fashion is hardcore fashion that was my point. Now its called something new? Bullshit. It an excuse for indie rock kids to look what is now considered cool etc. Just about all you have posted above I have been saying all along.
Quote:
Also, I belive that emo did have a meaning when it first started out. It was the kids who were tired of the fighting and bullshit that was going down at the shows. They wanted to play music that was positive and energenic and moved people to sing along instead of throw fists
Do me a favor and listen to Underdog, Verbal Assault, Dag Nasty, Youth Brigade, Youth Of today, Uniform Choice etc. That was more positive and energetic than anything ever created in my eyes. Pure emotional hardcore. Its been around forever. I dont agree at all that emo was created by kids who were tired of fighting at shows.
Emo music doesnt exist.
Emo = Hardcore fashion whores who either abandoned the hardcore scene and movement instead of making positive changes, or nerds who recently discovered this look and made it their own. Basicly Art fags with tattoos and tight clothes and bad haircuts that like to act real deep and poetic over stolen music. Gimme a break.
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:19 pm
atom
Team Hcor.net
Joined: Sep 7, 2002
Posts: 3828
Location: Strong Island, NY
Hcor wrote:
Do me a favor and listen to Underdog, Verbal Assault, Dag Nasty, Youth Brigade, Youth Of today, Uniform Choice etc. That was more positive and energetic than anything ever created in my eyes. Pure emotional hardcore. Its been around forever. I dont agree at all that emo was created by kids who were tired of fighting at shows.
while some of these bands portrayed themselves as being positive, do you really think they were? Sure maybe for all the sXe kids that believed that the youth crew movement was a positive thing... but to other it was just a way of segragating an already small community. So if you ask me, yeah the music has a positive message, but the actual beliefs of the bands wasnt all that positive. Also, the youth crew movement was pretty violent and paved the way for the Earth Crisis - vegan straightedge warrior movement. I got into hXc as the youth crew thing was on the way out...and I remember how nasty some shows got when it was overrun with angry striaghtedge kids with chips on their shoulders kicking peoples asses for smoking cigarettes.
I know not all the bands you mentioned above were youth crew, but they were from that time and I didnt really think of them as "emo". Meaning, they werent cry babies. They were sincere in what they were singing about, but not in a "lets hold hands and hug" kinda way. If you understand what Im saying.
_________________ peace love and harmony.
I dont know where i fit in the grand scheme of things
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:48 pm
Manhattanprjkt83
Toy
Joined: Jul 25, 2003
Posts: 28
Location: Pittsburgh
I know that this is the supporting EMO thread but i am not sure if i support it or if I think it is tot
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